Just to clarify, the Catholics regard verse 28 (not John 1:1) as "a literary inclusion with the first verse of the gospel: “and the Word was God” (NAB notes John 20, 28).
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version
by jonathan dough inwhen thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).
"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.
thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.
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"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version
by jonathan dough inwhen thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).
"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.
thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.
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jonathan dough
Jonathan said: that he was not simply talking to God in those verses as the JWs falsly teach.
nark: Actually JWs do not teach that. They have occasionally resorted to that explanation in the past but generally the WT admits that "my God" is addressed to Jesus, only in a weak or derived sense.
By "talking to God" I mean "directed to God," and their idea that Thomas was somehow talking to Jesus but actually directing that talk to God is just more convoluted hair-splitting double-speak on their part. If you talk to someone while standing in their presence can you really be directing that to someone else? Doesn't seem reasonable since it says Thomas was answering Jesus (John 20:26-29). He wasn't answering the heavenly Father.
They teach it "may" have been "directed to God," pursuant to the Reasoning book and/or Should You Believe in the Trinity tract." As you know the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Thomas thought of Jesus as no more than a special human occupying a “position far higher” than men and judges who were addressed as “gods” in the Old Testament (see John 10:34, 35 RS; Ps 82:1-6) (Reasoning, 213). Thus, Jesus was “like a god” (Should You Believe, Chapter 9).
As just mentioned, they also suggest “that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but directed to God” (ibid.) none of which makes sense, particularly in light of Psalm 35:23 and John 1:1 which the Catholics regard as "a literary inclusion with the first verse of the gospel: “and the Word was God” (NAB notes John 20, 28).
In either event they deny that Thomas thought of Jesus as "God" but the sum of evidence suggests otherwise given the fact that Jesus said He would resurrect Himself, and he stood before Thomas resurrected. Hope that clarifies what I intended to say.
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"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version
by jonathan dough inwhen thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).
"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.
thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.
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jonathan dough
I indicated it to you as "the 10th line from the top."
For what purpose did you require the scanning picture?In that part, it is written as "Elohai va-Adonai" (meaning: "my God andmy Lord").
Thank you for explaining that. It is just one more reason supporting the argument that Jesus was, and is, God as mentioned in the first entry of this thread; ie., that Thomas did think of the risen Christ as God and that he was not simply talking to God in those verses as the JWs falsly teach.
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Our Bible Study with the Jehovahs Witnesses (Part 2)
by garyneal inwell, my wife and i returned to the jw elders house for another bible study continuing the series in marriage.
that study went pretty well, poking fun at each other concerning our marital issues and all.
nothing in that particular study would seem to be bad or anything for after all, one cannot argue against the virtues of being faithful to your spouse and the marriage arrangement (at least for christians that is).
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jonathan dough
If the society believes that is true, then why doesnt
all of the new testament only apply to the anointed , for instance the preaching work, etc. If you want to shut a jws mouth
then ask them that question.
That's a good point as well. The answer is they cherry-pick it. They can never adequately explain why some verses apply to the GCrowd but not others. It is just a matter of their convenience. Of course their logic falls apart when they can't defend their literal 144,000 theory. It utterly collapses.
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"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version
by jonathan dough inwhen thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).
"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.
thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.
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jonathan dough
thanks.
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"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version
by jonathan dough inwhen thomas said "my lord and my god," he used the exact words that david used at psalm 35:23 with reference to god, writing, "awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, my god and my lord," (rsv, nab, kjv and green's literal translation).
"lord" here is translated from the hebrew adonai used exclusively of god.
thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen christ if he were just a man.
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jonathan dough
"excluding a questionable rendering of the Aleppo Codex"
What does this mean?
In the Aleppo Codex, it is not written as "My God and even Jehovah."
Oh, I thought that was what you were saying above. So I'm confused. How is it written in the Aleppo Codex?
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Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?
by Witness 007 injews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?
did jesus start it off?
are you saying jews were trinitarian?
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jonathan dough
Not sure of your point Satanus. Is this meant to correct or contradict something said here?
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My sister died in a head on collision last night
by Bumble Bee ini still can't believe it.
she was here for the bbq, we had an awesome time, laughing, her telling stories from our childhoods.
i gave her a hug and told her i loved her before she left.
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jonathan dough
I don't know what to say. My heart goes out to you and your family. I'm so very, very sorry.
JD II
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Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?
by Witness 007 injews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?
did jesus start it off?
are you saying jews were trinitarian?
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jonathan dough
RAB Did you ever go to the British Museum? You'll see from the certain artefacts that trinity was a pagan teaching. The Egyptian's also believed in tri-gods.
The trinity and the teaching's of Jesus Christ stem from pagan beliefs.
Absolutely wrong. Trinity does not teach three Gods; it is not tritheistic but monotheistic. That's a JW deceptive tactic that misleads many. Don't fall for that one.
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Our Bible Study with the Jehovahs Witnesses (Part 2)
by garyneal inwell, my wife and i returned to the jw elders house for another bible study continuing the series in marriage.
that study went pretty well, poking fun at each other concerning our marital issues and all.
nothing in that particular study would seem to be bad or anything for after all, one cannot argue against the virtues of being faithful to your spouse and the marriage arrangement (at least for christians that is).
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jonathan dough
"...he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah's name."
I don't know where they get this from as there are many parts to the one body, some prophecy, some minister, some teach (Romans 12:4-8).
"Are all prophets? Are all apostles? Are all teachers?" (1 Cor 12:27-31). Also Eph 4:11.
Not all should become teachers.